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General Upholstery Questions and Comments => General Discussion => Topic started by: Therapy on March 02, 2012, 08:44:29 AM

Title: faded-canvas
Post by: Therapy on March 02, 2012, 08:44:29 AM
Hi all  
Just wondering what you guys think about this
i been resewing some seam and replace the glass on my top
and i saw this on the bayliner form
What do you think time for a new top?

                              Thanks  Mike H

   http://www.baylinerownersclub.org/forum/showthread.php?67894-faded-canvas
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: BigJohn on March 02, 2012, 11:10:58 AM
Maybe a slip cover. hehehe
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: bobbin on March 02, 2012, 11:28:42 AM
I see fading on certain colors in the Sunbrella line.  Particularly reds, yellows, and "Toast" (a more "yellow" in the beige family).  I see the same thing in awnings, the reds and yellows are notorious for fade issues.  Obviously, the fading occurs more rapidly in areas of more and very direct sunshine.  I bet Mojo sees a lot of this, too, in his work with RVs. 

I have noticed that just because something has faded it isn't necessarily time for a complete replacement, sometimes the "damage" is really more cosmetic.  But it is probably the first shot across the bow with respect to considering your next move. 
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: kodydog on March 02, 2012, 10:36:05 PM
Maybe a slip cover. hehehe

I was thinking spray glue some canvas on. ???
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Mike on March 03, 2012, 10:56:06 AM
I wonder if more regular water treatment like 303 help less fade?
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Peppy on March 03, 2012, 04:13:25 PM
I've seen a customers top that he painted with a deck stain. It actually looked pretty good I hate to say. His top was 15 years old so he had nothing to lose.

303 makes this stuff- http://www.303products.com/shop303/index.cfm/category/1/303-aerospace-protectant.cfm I know a guy that swears by it.
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: JuneC on March 03, 2012, 08:56:46 PM
Does anyone know why Glen Raven switched their recommended waterproofing treatment for Sunbrella from 303 to Aqua-Tite? I'm tempted to believe the 303 worked a little TOO well.

June
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Mike on March 04, 2012, 09:19:29 AM
huh, i didnt hear that June. they used to endorse aqua0tite years ago then as it was a silicone based product the silicone attracted dirt  not a big deal if you  clean your canvas but they switched to 303 back when .  so now its aqua tite again . ive always liked and  used aqua tite
\

 were did you see that info june i didnt see that here

http://www.sunbrella.com/cleaning/marine-tops-covers.php
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: JuneC on March 04, 2012, 10:01:24 AM
I don't remember now where I read it Mike.  I should have printed it out or saved a copy. 

June
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Peppy on March 04, 2012, 03:23:15 PM
We used to use aquatite but then switched to 303 like Mike. Aquatite always gave me a headache so I was happy to see it go. 303 isn't much better and melts windows but it sure keeps the water out.

I don't think sunbrella's been the same since they switched to 303. I think it's such an awesome waterproofer that they're skimping the acrylic. Does anybody have a tech specs page in their sunbrella books anymore? Like with thread count and deinier and all that? Now that it comes from china i think they've been playing fast and loose with their specs.
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Mike on March 04, 2012, 04:53:20 PM
Ya I think there falling back  behind outdida and recacrl in quality but what to I know.  Ive got outdoors on. My boat
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Peppy on March 05, 2012, 07:20:32 AM
That's outdura Mike? We got a bunch of that from the auction a while back. I know nothing about it really. We're staring to push tempotest hard this year. It's too bad their colours aren't nearly as nice as sunbrella.
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Sunbrella on March 05, 2012, 12:53:29 PM
June, there has been no change from Sunbrella on re-treatment products.  303 Products is still our recommendation.
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: DBR1957 on March 05, 2012, 03:58:22 PM
To my knowledge Glen Raven recommends 303 for regular maintenance. It is not used as a treatment
in fabrication. Aquatite works great as a water repellant, however, I found it to stain Sunbrella if
it was used on a top that had significant aging. Particularly Cadet Grey and Toast. I haven't seen 303
Fabric Guard do that.

I always advise my customers to spray ant water treament with the cover off of the boat, outside and
out of direct sunlight.

Off topic but related to color, I actually had a call the other day from a lady with awnings made of
Sunbrella and she wanted to know if their was any way to wash out the color from the material.
You hear something new every day.


Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Peppy on March 05, 2012, 04:30:19 PM
June, there has been no change from Sunbrella on re-treatment products.  303 Products is still our recommendation.

Haha! I knew this thread would bring you out Sunbrella! So there's been no change in treatment, what about in your cloth? Is it the same weave and thread count as its always been? At our shop we think it's been getting thinner. Is it all in our minds? Can you point me to a spec sheet? Is it true it's made offshore now?

The shop has used sunbrella exclusively for 20 years, I've been there the last ten. We've always liked it but lately we've seen other cloths out preform it. I would love to hear from the horses mouth!
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: JuneC on March 05, 2012, 08:02:45 PM
Dont know where I read that Aqua Tite was "in".  Now that's gonna drive me nuts till I figure it out. 

June
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Therapy on March 06, 2012, 08:44:52 AM
  Wow  didnt no i was going to start a fire storm  :)
 my top is 6 years old and is in good shape
 it just needed some seam and ziper repair
 and i replace all the glass sides and back drape

  the top is a little faded  im thinking 2 years ill be replacing it
  ive been teaching myself how to pattern tops
  im on page 9 in the search area under pattern i think 2011
  
                                   Mike H
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Peppy on March 07, 2012, 07:27:13 AM
I wasn't trying to start a fire storm, honest. I'm stating my opinion in the hopes I'll get some answers. Sunbrella has an excellent opportunity to do some outreach here.

We use a lot of labour in a boat top, we want to use the best materials. At one time that was Sunbrella hands down. But I'm convinced that it's not the same as it used to be. It seems to feel different, sew different, and more light can be seen through it (water too). We've spent quite a bit of time talking about this at the shop, but it's all conjecture. We don't really know anything. I really hope Sunbrella sheds some light on my concerns.
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: regalman190 on March 07, 2012, 08:34:00 AM
I agree with you Peppy. I've notied a change in Sunbrella as well. The other thing I noticed is the 46" seems to have a firmer "hand" than the 60" But it all feels thinner. A few times lately, when stretching a top to tighten it up, the stitching might pull out (as you said, thinner), where that didn't happen before.
I'm using more Recacril this year. Customers like the Recacril "claim" to zero stretch. On the other hand, that causes some difficulties when fitting. Would definitely like to hear from Sunbrella.
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Peppy on March 07, 2012, 08:28:21 PM
Bumping this thread for great justice. Sunbrella are you out there?
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Mojo on March 08, 2012, 07:20:53 AM
Actually, the 303 treatment you want to consider is this product:

http://www.303products.com/shop303/index.cfm/category/29/303-high-tech-fabric-guard.cfm (http://www.303products.com/shop303/index.cfm/category/29/303-high-tech-fabric-guard.cfm)

The other product that Peppy posted is an awesome protectant for tires, vinyls, rubber products, etc.

Aerospace 303 supports my seminars with product samples, literature and giveaways. I encourage any of you that if you would like to sell their products to contact Roger at Aerospace and give him your company e-mail and he will send you a price list. They are very good at supporting their distributors as well as offering technical advice.

I recommend 303's Fabric Guard to all my customers and also tell them to apply it twice a year after washing their fabric. As with all acrylic fabrics they should be cleaned with a non detergent cleaner such as Woolite or Deft to preserve the finish. Steve from Sattler who did a seminar with me also recommended this process and the 303 fabric guard brand on all Sattler fabric. Recaccril and Sunbrella I assume also recommend non detergent cleaners as well as the Fabric Guard. The one thing customers want to avoid is harsh cleaners and detergent based cleaners not to mention any type of treatment that contains petroleum distillates. All of these will ruin the acrylic finish on fabric.

There. You just took part in a little of what I cover during my seminars. :)

I wished I could take credit for this knowledge but to be honest Aerospace 303, Miami Mike, Recassens and the fine folks at Sattler have spent a great deal of time edumucating me. The support I have gotten from all of these people have made a huge difference in my business. Like Steve from Sattler told me " the more successful I can make you, the more product you will use and the more money Mike and I will make." :)

Chris
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Mojo on March 08, 2012, 07:54:36 AM
Bobbin:

The vast majority of the fading I have seen has been in the darker red's, namely burgundys. The red pigment really takes a hit down here in Florida. The lighter colors do pretty good. I have not seen many fading issues with Recacril or Sattler. I just got in a 5 year old coach all done in Sunbrella. It was a charcoal tweed. It was my largest job to date from one customer - 4 slide toppers and 4 window awnings. I was impressed with the Sunbrella in as far as how it held up with its color. It looked very good. But the big issue was the thread breakage and stretch on the slide toppers. The awnings were all in good shape but the customer decided to change colors on everything at the same time. The slide toppers were stretched out and distorted badly and needed to be replaced.

You have to remember that most slide toppers are level and horizontal and collect water in the center. On a large slide topper the fabric can hold 3 or 4 gallons of water. This is over 30 lbs of weight. The sun then comes out, heats the water and distorts the fabric and creates permanent dips and bowls in the fabric. Sattler and Recacril seem to hold up well to this process because of its weave process. This is why I have standardized on these two products and actually I now use
90 % Sattler products.

I get very few jobs because of fading. Most of the orders come from broken thread and stretched fabric. The biggest culprit is broken thread. As long as Carefree, A & E and Girard keep manufacturing their slide toppers and awnings with V-92 Poly thread I will have a lot of business. The minute they all switch to Solarfix or Tenara I am probably going to close my doors. :)

The Poly thread they are using is lasting 2 to 3 years from what I am seeing. Some have made it 4 and 5 years if they are in Northern climates. I recently got a customer who had degraded and broken thread on his toppers on his 2011 coach. I just recently shipped several orders to Arizona. Obviously Florida is a huge market for me. :)

I want to thank the Poly thread manufacturers for the business as this has been a banner 12 months. :) Speaking of which I just did a quick estimate of how much fabric I have burned through in the last 6 months - 400 Yards. Yikes. That is a whole lot of sewing for a one man shop. I wont get into the crying jags I have had over ordering spools of Solarfix. I have used up several of those spools as well and I am still crying every time I order more. :)

Chris
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Mike on March 08, 2012, 01:51:41 PM
Chris why don't the toppers angle down to shed water you. Ever see a awning straight out to collect water
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Mojo on March 08, 2012, 02:06:52 PM
No idea. Some of the newer coaches have the slide toppers mounted higher on the coach side which sheds water. But most still have the coach side and slide out side about even. It is a crazy and stupid design.

Chris
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Peppy on March 12, 2012, 06:51:46 PM

The Poly thread they are using is lasting 2 to 3 years from what I am seeing. Some have made it 4 and 5 years if they are in Northern climates. I recently got a customer who had degraded and broken thread on his toppers on his 2011 coach. I just recently shipped several orders to Arizona. Obviously Florida is a huge market for me. :)


We get 5 or more years from our thread. Most customers don't care after that since they'll have sold the boat by then. Our customers will not pay more for tenara. Obviously boaters and RV'ers are different animals. Sailboaters usually do plan on keeping their boat longer, but their also too cheap to pay more for their already "outrageously overpriced" canvas. Besides, after 5 or more years they likely need other repairs on their top, and a restitch is no big deal. And it sells a bottle of 303.

Too bad Sunbrella won't respond.... You should give them a few tips on marketing Mojo. I don't think they get how this social networking works.
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Peppy on March 13, 2012, 11:17:08 AM

[/quote]
Too bad Sunbrella won't respond.... You should give them a few tips on marketing Mojo. I don't think they get how this social networking works.
[/quote]

Well shut my mouth. Sunbrella phoned me today. Had an interesting talk. One thing- seems the 'made in China' thing is a half truth. He said the stuff made there is furniture fabrics for all the furniture made there. And that it loses it's NAFTA cert if the yarn is spun elsewhere and imported (USA, France or China). I learned some other things too. Thank you for getting back to me Sunbrella!
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: ahkahn on March 14, 2012, 07:54:14 AM
You know, seeing these comments about Sunbrella, how bad it fades, and the fact that Glen Raven won't respond [EDIT: the ultimately did] really makes me curious why people continue to use it. 

It's widely known that the product has changed drastically over the last 10 years, but yet I still see comments in this thread that state "we exclusively use it".  I'm not here to bash a competing product than what we sell (we did sell Sunbrella, and dropped it about 7 years ago), but I'm blown away at the fact that people are so loyal to a product that has so many complaints.

Can someone please explain this phenomena to me?

Also, as a sidenote, 303 and Aqua-Tite will not do anything for fading.  They are strictly made to restore the water-repellant features to the fabric.

Thanks!
Andrew
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Mojo on March 14, 2012, 09:03:19 AM
I have never worked with Sunbrella. I have heard from industry experts that the Sunbrella product used for awnings and such has changed. Whether it is their yarns, weave process or what I do not know.

My business is all based on replacement work of awnings and slide toppers. I have done Sunbrella replacements from the late 90's through to 2008. I myself have seen the difference in the Sunbrella fabric and quality. As I stated before Sunbrella is not something I would use that has to support weight such as water. The stretch is to bad.

I did replacement fabrics for numerous 2000 - 2003 coaches that were all done in Sunbrella. I was surprised as it was in decent shape. They held up very well over the years. The color was still pretty good. I did several from 2007 and 2008 and those fabrics ( all Sunbrella ) were in worse shape then the older ones, some fading and a whole lot of stretch.

I do not want to bash Sunbrella either but due to the requirements of RV fabric installations it is not a good fabric for me. I believe Carefree and several other large awning manufacturers have all switched to Recacril. Their decision may have been quality driven or price driven. I am not sure.

My reputation is built on the quality of my materials and workmanship. RV'ers pay me a premium price for my slide topper and  window awnings and expect the very best in materials. This is why I only use Solarfix thread and Sattler / Recacril fabrics. Both are made in Europe, both have a different weave process, both have little stretch and both manufacturers use premium yarns.

I cannot afford to get returns because they are faded or stretched out. I would go broke and be out of business in a very short period of time. Problems with suppliers and jobbers spreads lightening fast in the RV world. Real fast. So I need to stay on top of my game with workmanship and materials.

I cannot comment on Sunbrellas factory support as I have never used their product. But I can tell you without a doubt the factory support from Recacril and Sattler is amazing. You have a problem and they are all over it and will make it right for you. For the head of Sattler North America to come in and do a seminar with me and provide me with giveaways for the attendees as well as conduct a portion of the seminar speaks volumes on manufacturer support. I have already commented on MiamiMikes support. Any issues I have had he has fixed ASAP.

I am completely happy with Sattler products as well as Recacril. Why some don't switch is beyond me and further more it is non of my business. People I guess need to use whatever they feel they need to use. :)

Chris

 
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: ahkahn on March 14, 2012, 01:06:05 PM
Chris,

Thanks for your candid feedback - I agree 100%.  FYI, you know Outdura is a Sattler product now.

Take care,
Andrew
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Peppy on March 15, 2012, 06:43:21 AM

Can someone please explain this phenomena to me?

Customers ask for Sunbrella. They asked for denim backed vinyl once too, so that can change. But we're more than happy to piggy back on Sunbrella's decades of branding. If I convince a customer to go with a 'new' fabric (one that I don't know the strengths or weaknesses of) and it fails, it'll be me who's to blame not the fabric. We also have a whack of inventory and 20 years of jobs (needing repairs) done in Sunbrella. Now we have to stock 2 kinds of nearly identical fabric? That's why the decision to switch is not done lightly, or overnight.

It gives me hope that Sunbrella would phone lowly old me. It tells me they've heard about these problems a lot, and they're in damage control mode. No doubt they'll change the recipe ( and raise the price) and will go back to being good stuff. I hope anyway, or else we'll have to spend 20 years building up their rival brands like Mojo's doing.
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Mojo on March 15, 2012, 07:13:32 AM
Peppy:

I have had no problem with my customers but then RV owners tend to be a very stringent group
that researches the hell out of everything. They have done their research with slide toppers and awnings and when you have fabric that fails you it doesn't take long for the entire RV community to fail you. Like I said earlier, news in the RV world travels real fast.

I belong to several RV forums and two of them are massive. One post on these forums reaches 20 thousand people. It doesn't take long for the word to get around. I market my products with an emphasis on the products I use. There is some education that goes with this, hence my seminars. I find that the more I take the time to educate my customers, the more my business picks up. of course I have had to delve into learning the mechanics  of the roller tubes and extension arms and learn the process of changing out the fabric and dealing with that dreaded torsion spring. Many of my customers come to me with these questions so I try and be prepared.

I try not to bash any products but rather show the differences between mine and theirs, or in my particular case I place a heavy emphasis on the materials I use. I do not bash Sunbrella in any of my advertising nor on my web site. I feel it is unprofessional. Instead I highlight the benefits of using Sattler or Recacril fabrics and Solarfix threads. That is what separates me from the competition.

It just so happens to be that in the RV world, Sunbrella is a dirty word. I do not have to bash their name as my customers do a good job of it all by themselves. :) This is why I make sure that I use the Recassens and Sattler sew-in tags on all my products. It keeps me from getting shot by a customer who thinks I may have used Sunbrella on their awnings or toppers. :)

This entire move into the RV World has been very entertaining not to mention it has had a HUGE learning curve. I thought Marine people were picky. The typical RV'er is all about brands and getting the best they can for their " Babies " ( motorcoaches ).

Chris
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Mojo on March 15, 2012, 07:25:33 AM
Chris,

Thanks for your candid feedback - I agree 100%.  FYI, you know Outdura is a Sattler product now.

Take care,
Andrew

Andrew:

I have looked at the Outdura and it is an awesome product. I love the hand it has and it enjoys an awesome reputation in the marine world. Unfortunately its price is much higher then what I am paying for Sattler and Recacril. If I went to Outdura I would have to have another price increase and I have already raised my prices this year once. I am now just above my competitions prices so I need to hold the line to keep from driving business away.

The other option would be to swallow the cost myself which would result in a direct hit on my margins. That is something I am not willing to do. :) But I still like the fabric and would probably use it on my own boat.

Mike and June are my go-to Marine experts and have vast amounts of experience working with all the different fabrics. I haven't a clue with some of the marine fabrics out there so MiamiMike sends me a small cut now and then off the end of a roll to work with to help get me up to speed. It has helped as every now and then I get a call to do a vinyl type awning or slide topper. I used Top Gun, Tough Stuff and Weathermax all based on small cuts he sent me.

If I still have questions about material I get a hold of June or Mike. MiamiMike also provides me with up to date info on what is working well in the Florida climate. But to get back to your post, I really do like the Outdura stuff. :)

Chris
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: ahkahn on March 17, 2012, 09:07:46 AM
Chris,

I agree with your point on the pricing differences.  I'm working on something right now to overcome that with Outdura.

Keep in mind, you can feel free to use me as a resource, too!

-Andrew
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Mike on March 17, 2012, 08:53:54 PM
Chris you wre usedg strictly recsacril i belive at ontime  promoting it with no streach   , but notw you use satlrer also  why does it hav no steach also i hacnt used it but have outdura and ive seen streach though andrew says it satler also . i have used recacril alot.  on one boat i made a large cover on a deckboat for a dealor then displayed ythe boat on the side of a inclne with the cover n and at theodd angle rainwater collecter on a corner and streached a bowle shape like sunbrella the i had to tighten to fix best i could
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Mojo on March 17, 2012, 10:07:52 PM
I switched to Sattler mainly because of the marketability of their fabric within the industry I sell within ( RV's ). Also it does have a bit better water column then Recacril. ( I am going to have to have Miami Mike jump on here to answer the water column bit ). I also felt the Sattler handled better and machined easier. In other words I like the hand of Sattler better then Recacril. I am doing a large order right now in Recacril because I could not get the tweed color I needed in Sattler. I cleaned Miami Corp out of it completely. So I went with the Recacril tweed which is identical.

The other reason why I went with Sattler is because of the industry I am working within ( RV's ). The big million dollar buses use a lot of Sattler on their window awnings so I can promote and market my product using them as a reference. When you mention Newell or Prevost to an RV'er their eyes widen and their ears perk up as they know they are all about quality and the best in materials. I also admit I get much better factory support from Sattler then I do from Recacril. As I stated previously, Sunbrella has such a bad reputation among RV'ers that if I used their fabric I would lose the majority of my business. Among marine people Sunbrella is the second coming. Among RV'ers it is like Satan entering the room. :)

One other reason why I went to Sattler is because my competition is still using Sunbrella while another switched to Recacril two years ago. I wanted to find a premium difference between my product and theirs. Sattler and Solarfix did the trick for me.

I will e-mail MiamiMike and have him address your stretch issue with Recacril along with addressing the issue with the water column thingie and the difference between the two fabrics. There is not much difference to be honest. I believe the weave is nearly identical and both are made in Europe using premium yarns ( Recacril - Spain and Sattler - Austria ). But there is a huge difference between both of these fabrics and Sunbrella.

I have pushed out so many slide toppers I lost track of the count. I have never had a report or complaint on stretch. And slide toppers are a flat piece of fabric.

Chris
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Miami Mike on March 18, 2012, 08:34:23 PM
I will not state that something is better than the other. But every fabric has its place. We now sell 3 Acrylics Recacril, Outdura and now Sattler. Recacril and Sattler Have little to no stretch because of the Ring Spun yarn and it's a smaller yarn. This helps the weaving to be much tighter. To the best of my knowledge the Outdura has the highest in tear strength over all. This includes several other lines I will not say.

Mike you said you used Recacril on a cover and had a pool of water and it stretched out? I have not heard of that before. Not saying it could not happen, but I have not heard this before.

Outdura / Sattler> they are totally two different fabrics. Yes Sattler bought Outdura a little over a year ago. But these fabrics are different. Outdura is made in North Carolina and Sattler is made in Austria. Sattler has a smaller yarn and a tighter weave, Outdura is a larger Yarn and is a little stronger. Again, Outdura is the strongest tear strength over all Acrylics. Over 300 lb. Ask you rep what the tear strength of your Acrylic is. See if you can get it.

You can look on the back of the sample cards to see all the info on Recacril, Outdura and Sattler.

Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Miami Mike on March 18, 2012, 08:46:53 PM
PS: By the way I'm in Florida now. Just a few miles north of Jacksonville. I will not make it by your shops this week  :( Mike, Chris or June.  But i will be back into Florida soon.
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Mojo on March 18, 2012, 09:02:20 PM
PS: By the way I'm in Florida now. Just a few miles north of Jacksonville. I will not make it by your shops this week  :( Mike, Chris or June.  But i will be back into Florida soon.

This time plan to stick around to buy me lunch or dinner. I let you off the hook the last time. Not this time though. :)

Looking forward to seeing you again. I am really sorry I am missing the big open house and party in Jacksonville. I wanted to get yup there and meet the guys and see the new warehouse but I will be in Goshen, Indiana for the week doing another bloody seminar. :)

Chris
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Miami Mike on March 18, 2012, 09:09:06 PM
I hate to hear that :o  lunch who stops for lunch anymore?
Title: Re: faded-canvas
Post by: Mike on March 19, 2012, 07:32:17 AM
I is plenty f outfits from mike.
Oh snd lunch I try to never miss it usually it gets so layed  back it's hard to work after lunch