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General Upholstery Questions and Comments => General Discussion => Topic started by: 65Buick on December 21, 2017, 04:25:03 PM

Title: Ziggers
Post by: 65Buick on December 21, 2017, 04:25:03 PM
I was taking apart a chair and noticed that the zig zag springs had much larger space between them. It's a chair from the 60s I assume. I thought all zigs were the same size?

Will post photo in a bit.
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: MinUph on December 21, 2017, 04:48:23 PM
That is normal. Ziggers are not all the same size.
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: sofadoc on December 21, 2017, 05:20:43 PM
Much of the new junk made today has ziggers with wider bends. Usually a lighter gauge, cheaper quality spring. Kinda unusual to hear of a 60's chair with them.
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: kodydog on December 21, 2017, 07:33:24 PM
Rarely a day go's by that I don't scratch my head and go huh.
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: 65Buick on December 21, 2017, 09:23:11 PM
Here it is

http://gdurl.com/Ps38

I was thinking 60s because it was originally a purple damask fabric. But now I'm thinking maybe it was more like 80s. They were filthy too, I was envisioning that they were in some of bar, or maybe party room.

Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: gene on December 21, 2017, 09:26:54 PM
I got interested so I did some googling - not to be confused with canoodling.

No Sag springs were introduced in furniture in 1934.

http://homefurniturecomponents.com/campaigns/high-point/Content/documents/seating/no-sag.pdf

gene
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: 65Buick on December 21, 2017, 10:09:47 PM
gene that's a cool brochure. 1930s! hard to believe.

According to it: Supr-Loop is ideal for backs and under coil spring units

Typical. Factory was like 'who cares! they'll never know'
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: MinUph on December 21, 2017, 10:32:24 PM
Yes I've seen these through my whole career. I'd say 15% of the ziggers are these spaced out ones.
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: 65Buick on December 21, 2017, 10:48:06 PM
After some thought, and doing the coil spring tying thing, I have to be honest:
I don't see a big deal in using the better quality ziggers. Has anyone ever been asked "please use hand-tied coil springs and not those zig-zag springs." seriously.
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: kodydog on December 22, 2017, 08:45:44 AM
I worked with a guy who had never done 8-way tie. He was from Miami and one day I asked him, what did you do when a piece of furniture needed the coil springs retied. He said his boss would rip out all the springs, throw them away, web the bottom and put foam inside the cavity. I was shocked. I then taught him the art of 8-way hand tying.

I have never had a customer ask to replace coil springs with ziggers. That would be a down grade. Usually by the time I finish explaining what 8-way tied springs are they say, just fix it.
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: sofadoc on December 22, 2017, 09:35:19 AM
To me, ziggers or coils is not an ďeither/orĒ option.
If the piece was originally designed with ziggers, then it should remain that way.
Same with coils.

Iíve seen a few jobs where all the hand-tied coils springs were ripped out and replaced with a slab of foam.
It may have seemed like a real time-saver to the guy that did it. But foam isnít cheap. When you factor the cost of the foam versus the time to tie the coils, it was probably a wash.
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: MinUph on December 22, 2017, 09:42:51 AM
After some thought, and doing the coil spring tying thing, I have to be honest:
I don't see a big deal in using the better quality ziggers. Has anyone ever been asked "please use hand-tied coil springs and not those zig-zag springs." seriously.

That was not a good thought process. Downgrading a seat to ziggers is like taking a Cadillac (older one) and putting a VW engine it it. Ziggers when they first came into mass use were considered junk furniture. No support.
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: baileyuph on December 22, 2017, 09:59:12 AM
You need a broader background in furniture building to better understand the differences found
in the two springs.

First it starts with the frame - not built the same.  Coil frames are much stronger and are built differently.

Second, think about a zipper spring and ask the question where is the weakest point?  (a little help --
right where the person sits) - the middle.  Not true with a coil arrangement. 

Where are coils the most comfortable?  doesn't matter, all coils are the same in the spring base, so sits
with the same general comfort.  Doesn't take much to understand that the comfort dynamics of the zig- zag varies across the spring (much harder as you move from the center.

Another spring edges _ very important and not normally found in Z-Z springs.  Coils rectify that
concern.  Edges spring!

There is much more to understanding the two springs.

Doyle
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: kodydog on December 22, 2017, 11:23:38 AM
Iíve seen a few jobs where all the hand-tied coils springs were ripped out and replaced with a slab of foam.
It may have seemed like a real time-saver to the guy that did it. But foam isnít cheap. When you factor the cost of the foam versus the time to tie the coils, it was probably a wash.

True and the comfort will be changed drastically. If you do it without the customers permission you will have some explaining to do. I don't know how these guys get away with it.
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: 65Buick on December 22, 2017, 11:40:22 AM
Alright. I see everyone's point here.

It's difficult when so many people see a price and don't ask questions.

We have a sofa in our house that I bought before I began this. It was not a cheap piece - over 2k.
It uses ziggers and 6" HR foam. I find it comfortable.
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: MinUph on December 22, 2017, 12:57:40 PM
65, Do you still find it comfortable after 2 hours? Or do you find yourself re positioning yourself often?
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: 65Buick on December 22, 2017, 01:02:53 PM
I'm not really sure Paul - I normally don't just sit on a sofa. I lie back, etc. I could pay more attention next time.
I've also never had a coil-spring piece, so I don't really have anything to compare it to.

Also I am not sure if this makes a difference - I'm on the lighter side. Not quite 12 stone.
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: SteveA on December 22, 2017, 02:28:02 PM
The zig zag springs seem ok to me - but not approaching the quality of coils  - however you see a lot of failure to zig zags  where the end of the spring joins to the clip.
SA
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: sofadoc on December 22, 2017, 02:40:02 PM
The zig zag springs seem ok to me - but not approaching the quality of coils  - however you see a lot of failure to zig zags  where the end of the spring joins to the clip.
SA

Yeah. Cheaper frames, cheaper clips. All doomed to fail. Many factories opt for clips that cost a penny apiece instead of a nickel apiece. They save about a dollar a couch.
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: 65Buick on December 22, 2017, 05:02:40 PM
Well I've invested in a klinch-it tool, and clips. And from what you guys are saying..

I'll go with the coil springs. When I finish my loveseat I'll be sure to have a good rest and test out the comfort.

Appreciate the input.
Title: Re: Ziggers
Post by: gene on December 22, 2017, 09:11:03 PM
"Downgrading a seat to ziggers is like taking a Cadillac (older one) and putting a VW engine it it."

Back when I was a teenager working at my first job, there was a guy who worked that that who had a Porsche that he put a VW engine in it. He got it with a blown engine and wrecked body. He fixed the body and put in the VW engine.

I can still see and hear that Porsche accelerating going down the alley behind the building. That was the weirdest thing.

gene