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: PDQ's Completed Projects (Canvas)  ( 12290 )
PDQ
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« #30 : September 14, 2010, 10:08:52 AM »

Yes we build our dodgers like you do (not as groovy, mind) with the inlaid windows. Cutting a fabric blank, sewing windows on and cutting the hole out. Dodgers are nearly the only tops we build like this. And afterthought windows. And like you I make a WYSIWYG paper bag boat top. Only difference really is I make 1/2 of it. Lately though we've come up with a hybrid, inlaid till the bottom of the window then a topstiched seam where it meets the cloth. Worked once!

 I draw all the lines for seams or zippers in their (mostly) finished position. At the cutting table; seams are marked 'yes' both sides of the line to add 1/2" seam, lines at the snaps are 'no' for cut and bind, zippers are a 'yes/no' on either side to create overlap. We build all the panels out of several little pieces, seam them and topstitch them.

The reason we make 1/2 patterns (aside from less pattern work) is that on the cutting table we cut 2 layers of sunbrella out at once with the hotknife. Centerlines on the pattern are laid on the fold of doubled over cloth. It's also half the work cutting out. Reference points are symmetrical so left and right isn't much of a problem. Do you ever do something like this? I can't believe nobody else does it like this. I guess you have to make 1/2 a pattern for it to be beneficial though.

I really don't understand the DOT method personally. Seems like it's making life a lot tougher than it needs to be. I can't believe people can make something that looks good without seeing it first. I guess I'm too dumb and have to see it to believe it.


The only time that I would make half a pattern for enclosures/hoods is when I'm forced to do so by the weather. For me personally I dislike doing it because it just feels like I'm shooting in the dark and I would spend the many hours of building the cover worrying about it.

Any overlaying of the cloth would only come about if working to measurments for a large cover such as a winter cover, for example. measurements would be chalked on the floor so that the chalked lines would transfer to the underside and then the lines are redrawn/traced to the top side.

Don't hotknife as we use coated acrylic for most work, but if uncoated is used, which is normaly only used for sail coats, stackpacks, wind dodgers, and the odd interior job for example, then all raw edges and seams are turned and sewn.





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« #31 : September 14, 2010, 07:59:55 PM »

Don't hotknife as we use coated acrylic for most work, but if uncoated is used, which is normaly only used for sail coats, stackpacks, wind dodgers, and the odd interior job for example, then all raw edges and seams are turned and sewn.

Do you turn your acrylic seams? Or just the hotknifed ones? And thats to protect against the scratchy-ness? Does the acrylic fray?

Quote
The only time that I would make half a pattern for enclosures/hoods is when I'm forced to do so by the weather. For me personally I dislike doing it because it just feels like I'm shooting in the dark and I would spend the many hours of building the cover worrying about it.

I stopped worrying, like, 5 years ago. What, me worry? I made it, I can fix it right? That gets me to sleep, anyway. Admittedly there's a lot more room for error and places to make a fix on a camperback than a dodger. You worry about staying on center, I worry about drawing a dodger with a quizzical expression.

Quote
Any overlaying of the cloth would only come about if working to measurments for a large cover such as a winter cover, for example. measurements would be chalked on the floor so that the chalked lines would transfer to the underside and then the lines are redrawn/traced to the top side.

See.... that to me seems as kooky as making 1/2 a pattern must sound to other people. I must not understand right.
-You draw a boat on the ground in chalk
-un-roll a tarp folded in half on the chalk and pat it down
-draw the boat again on the top layer of the cloth?

Should we start a new thread?

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« #32 : October 05, 2010, 12:11:41 PM »


Do you turn your acrylic seams? Or just the hotknifed ones? And thats to protect against the scratchy-ness? Does the acrylic fray?

Coated doesn't fray, well it does if left exposed to the elements for a period of time, hence the reason not to have a raw edge on the exterior no matter what some say, mostly those whom believe that it is perfectly acceptable to have a raw edge around their windows.  ::) A coated raw edge on the interior is fine if trimmed neatly.

Uncoated frays like there's no tomorrow so the edges are therefore turned, hotknifed, or even pinked by some depending on the type and quality of the cover.

I stopped worrying, like, 5 years ago. What, me worry? I made it, I can fix it right? That gets me to sleep, anyway. Admittedly there's a lot more room for error and places to make a fix on a camperback than a dodger. You worry about staying on center, I worry about drawing a dodger with a quizzical expression.

For me it's a question of symmetry of the frame work, the boat, or both. Considering that the majority of work are remakes and as such the frame work has been produced elsewhere, together with wear & tear/abuse of the frames throughout its lifetime leaves one to be very suspicious of anything being symmetric, not to mention the sometimes laughable tolerances of a modern day boat builder. 

See.... that to me seems as kooky as making 1/2 a pattern must sound to other people. I must not understand right.
-You draw a boat on the ground in chalk
-un-roll a tarp folded in half on the chalk and pat it down
-draw the boat again on the top layer of the cloth?

Not "kooky" at all if experienced in traditional methods of canvas work that descended from the art of Sailmaking. Think about the method of laying and cutting a sail on the floor and transfer that concept somewhat into marking, overlaying and cutting a cover on the floor by using triangulation, chalking/pinned & stringed, and then overlaying from bolts of canvas to reach the prepared shape on the floor. :)

Should we start a new thread?

Here's just fine. :tup:

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.
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« #33 : October 05, 2010, 09:09:59 PM »

Not "kooky" at all if experienced in traditional methods of canvas work that descended from the art of Sailmaking. Think about the method of laying and cutting a sail on the floor and transfer that concept somewhat into marking, overlaying and cutting a cover on the floor by using triangulation, chalking/pinned & stringed, and then overlaying from bolts of canvas to reach the prepared shape on the floor. :)

One thing I do that I learned as a child sewing clothes from pre-made patterns is how to transfer marks from one side of fabric to the other.  Simply stick a pin through at key points on the line (such as the points of a dart) then lift the fabric and mark where the pins come through on the other side.  Still do that with darts and cut lines on many canvas covers where the marks for whatever reason end up on the wrong side of the fabric.   I've also had boat outlines  reproduced on my living room floor in masking tape based on measures taken from the real thing  ;D

June

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« #34 : October 05, 2010, 10:18:59 PM »

http://milfordpreschoolplus.co.uk/scs/odds_sods/018.JPG
nice work pdq just wondering how you treat the insides of theese inlayed windows?
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« #35 : October 27, 2010, 06:55:13 PM »

One thing I do that I learned as a child sewing clothes from pre-made patterns is how to transfer marks from one side of fabric to the other.  Simply stick a pin through at key points on the line (such as the points of a dart) then lift the fabric and mark where the pins come through on the other side.  Still do that with darts and cut lines on many canvas covers where the marks for whatever reason end up on the wrong side of the fabric.   I've also had boat outlines  reproduced on my living room floor in masking tape based on measures taken from the real thing  ;D

June

You got it, June. :tup:



http://milfordpreschoolplus.co.uk/scs/odds_sods/018.JPG
nice work pdq just wondering how you treat the insides of theese inlayed windows?

I treat them with utter contempt, Mike.  ;D

Actually, I have a number of images that will give you a better idea in how I do mine (various ways). I'll dig them out and upload them when I get the chance. :) 
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« #36 : November 04, 2010, 01:04:20 PM »

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

No worries, no hurries!

For me it's a question of symmetry of the frame work, the boat, or both. Considering that the majority of work are remakes and as such the frame work has been produced elsewhere, together with wear & tear/abuse of the frames throughout its lifetime leaves one to be very suspicious of anything being symmetric, not to mention the sometimes laughable tolerances of a modern day boat builder. 

So does that mean that if you were making the frame and installing the snaps on a naked boat you would do 1/2 a pattern?

I'm beginning to realize that 1/2 a pattern is only advantageous if you do the 'cut two layers of cloth at once with a hot knife' trick. On topgun or stamoid tops where it's cut with scissors it's a bit of a pain cutting first the top layer then cutting the bottom layer without everything moving. And cutting two layers of cloth at once is only good if your working with a 1/2 a pattern. Who would want 2 identical boat tops? It's only worth it when your cutting one side to get two.

Think about the method of laying and cutting a sail on the floor and transfer that concept somewhat into marking, overlaying and cutting a cover on the floor by using triangulation, chalking/pinned & stringed, and then overlaying from bolts of canvas to reach the prepared shape on the floor. :)

Okay I get the principles of triangulation and the laying out I don't really get what your gaining by drawing your 'boat' twice in chalk (once on the floor and again on the top layer of cloth, do I have that right?) Does triangulation save time? I understand the advantage of not stretching huge patterns over windy boats but a pattern seems more idiot proof. Trust me, I need proofing.

Not "kooky" at all if experienced in traditional methods of canvas work that descended from the art of Sailmaking

Well thats my problem right there :) I'm a product of the 'figure it out as you go' method of boat topping.

Lastly,

:tup:

Whats that mean?

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« #37 : November 26, 2010, 03:20:53 PM »

Peppy: "I really don't understand the DOT method personally. Seems like it's making life a lot tougher than it needs to be. I can't believe people can make something that looks good without seeing it first. I guess I'm too dumb and have to see it to believe it."

Well, all I can say Pep-man is that it isn't really at all that much different than what you do.
I use plastic like PDQ and my patterns look much like his.
The only 'dots' are located along the tubing to mark centers and edges of tops and side panels and also dots at the hull to mark where the panel corners meet.
Otherwise, I still have windows, doors/zips and other marks like seams just like you do...


I'd rather be sailing..  - but if ya gotta work it's nice to be around boats!
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« #38 : November 28, 2010, 01:59:46 PM »

I guess I should say "I don't understand the advantages of the dot system if the the dot system is used as this guy presents it."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Etxh7N_kgI
It's at about the 2 minute mark before he gets around to patterning.

What I don't get, and maybe I'm wrong, he patterns one piece between the bars marks his seam line and reference marks, then takes it off rolls it up and puts it away. Then patterns the next section makes his marks and lines then puts that piece away. Is that how it's done? Or does just this yahoo do it that way?

What I don't get is how can he tell if the bars move? If he bumps a bar after patterning the first section then goes on to the next that'll be a pretty crappy bimini, no? With the 'paper bag method' I have the complete tarp in front of me when I'm done. Each pattern section serves to 'lock' the bars in position. If the bars move I'll see the resulting wrinkles and know I screwed up. Then when the pattern is done I have the freedom to draw my zipper lines where I think they'll look good. Your dots dictate where the zippers are right? What if you want to drop the line an inch or two?

If you do the 'paper bag method' or (plastic as the case may be) Do you draw the seams on the bars first? And why do you do that?

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« #39 : November 28, 2010, 05:59:57 PM »

The bars won't move if they're properly strapped together and to the deck with filament tape.  Only advantage I see for making two pieces instead of one is that with two, you can stand up right next to the center bar and mark.  With a very large bimini, covering the entire frame with one piece of plastic makes it very difficult to mark the middle section of the center bow unless you're hanging from the rigging in a bosun's chair. 

Almost always I make a one-piece pattern, pulling firmly across the top/center.  Then where you'd normally put darts along the outer edge of the center bow where the pattern bags, pull the pattern firmly aft and mark along the bow.   Then pull the pattern forward and mark again, along the bow.  What you're left with is basically an inverted "V" that shows how much excess to take out along that bow.  In the center where I can't reach to mark on the outside, I run my Sharpie along the bow from the inside.  With a mark along both sides of the center, I can then add on an inch on both sides (assumes side to side seam, not fore/aft) and I've got my curve for the center pocket. 

I guess I use a combination of methods.  Not really true to the dot method.

June

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Mike8560
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« #40 : December 01, 2010, 05:17:18 PM »



What I don't get, and maybe I'm wrong, he patterns one piece between the bars marks his seam line and reference marks, then takes it off rolls it up and puts it away. Then patterns the next section makes his marks and lines then puts that piece away. Is that how it's done? Or does just this yahoo do it that way?

What I don't get is how can he tell if the bars move?
i do mine like that actually .If you have to do the top pattern from in the boat, its the only way to do it i can think of in mosy cases. to be able to stand up sticking your head up in the rear or front of the top/ i use blue painter tape under he seam tape im sure he gets tape residue when he sake off the stapping tape. use strappint tape to securly the frames or " bars" in place from mving  and dont touch the frames
just as if you patterned the top then the side window.
DONTP TOUCH .the frames
i dont agree with him where he marks his front and rear bows for the seam.
« : December 02, 2010, 07:03:51 AM Mike8560 »
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« #41 : December 02, 2010, 07:59:30 PM »

The bars won't move if they're properly strapped together and to the deck with filament tape. 

I don't trust filament tape as much as you. I've had some terrible disasters, like the tape spontaneously snapping if it's not pulled perfectly in line from bar to bar, or the glue lets go (on the window usually) from heat or Armor All or on the bar due to repositioning. I think it does stretch a little too. I bet I pull my patterns a lot more than you. Or use less tape. These are partly the reasons I developed the strapping/fish scale method of tensioning frames. I still use lots of filament tape but in a supporting role. So to speak.

  With a very large bimini, covering the entire frame with one piece of plastic makes it very difficult to mark the middle section of the center bow unless you're hanging from the rigging in a bosun's chair. 

I wonder how our good man Mr. PDQ does it? And thats the bonus then? I figured as much but never had it spelled out before. It just seems to me that it's introducing variables and uncertainties into the system. The bars could move. And how would you know till you're done? Even a 1/2" somewhere could really screw you up.

DONTP TOUCH .the frames

Ya but shit happens sometimes right? Then what? Each piece of my pattern 'locks' the bars in place. (on the con side it's easy to tighten each section pulling the bars out of parallel and making the seams (side to side on the bars) run in a shallow V on the finished tarp. Why I don't trust filament tape too much.

Quote
i do mine like that actually .If you have to do the top pattern from in the boat, its the only way to do it i can think of in mosy cases. to be able to stand up sticking your head up in the rear or front of the top

I know one other way, pattern half! Then you get the bonus double cutting thing too!

Quote
i dont agree with him where he marks his front and rear bows for the seam.

Me neither.

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« #42 : December 02, 2010, 08:12:00 PM »

i hueese i didnt read the entire thread and see Junes ?s  even doing only half as i will do on many mooring covers, ive never done half and top or enclosure yet. how do you mark the pattern when its a big top  say 5 bow that goese all the way to the stern boat sitting in the water?
 i knew a giy who had a trick whrere he would stick strapping tape back onto itself and pull it and have it5 break.. usubg shrinh plastic i olny pull tight enough to take out the wrinkle. i wouldnt want to streach the plastic. so i dont pull too tight at all.
« : December 02, 2010, 08:38:20 PM Mike8560 »
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